Keepers of the Truth
This is a place where I will express myself in various ways. It is my hope that my views and art will create dialog which will be fun and informative. I'm always looking for insightful and constructive criticism.Saturday, March 03, 2007
The Bible, The True Word?
So my dear friend Baldman posted something asking for the correct tense of a verb in a passage from the Bible. Several people stopped by and gave their interprutation of that passage, including myself. Now, I'm not a Christian so I try and keep low during Baldman's religious posts because I know he's looking for on-topic comments and not battles about why I should convert. When it looked like my comment was going to cause his blog to become that I decided to bring that battle over here so his blog could stay focused.
In a nutshell, I have been saying that because there are so many diffenent versions of the Bible it makes it hard to know what the true word of God is (assuming that the word of God is given in the Bible). Also, knowing that the Bible was transcribed by mortals, who is to say that somewhere in the transcription there was not a misspelling or wrong word inserted which chould inadvertanly change the meaning of one passage or another. One poster, Sean, has said that since the Bible can be traced down to within 30 years of the origin and there are more than 5,000 copies around the world. To this I reply that I know there are more than 5,000 copies of Cat In The Hat and it can be traced almost to 30 minutes of its origin. Does that make it true? If so, watch out for Thing 1 and Thing 2.
One point I usually make when I speak to people about why I am an Athiest is because I don't see any proof otherwise. Religion is nothing more than trying to explain the unexplainable. The Greeks tried it with their gods, as did many other cultures. Most every group of people has one set of beliefs or another and each was formed because they wanted to explain why they were here and how to control those around them. I believe that the purpose of religion is a good one. I love to quote Henry David Thoreau when he says in Walden, "Tablemanners were created so we don't kill those sitting next to us at dinner." We all need those rules. If you look at the 10 commandments, those are rules so we can all get along. Don't follow those rules, most likely someone will be upset. Usually, I try to follow the last 6 of the 17 10 commandments (This is like speaking of the fourth book of the Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy Trilogy) But I digress. What I was really going to say is that if the Bible were a set of rules God set down for his children to follow then he is a poor parent. If, when my child is born in a few months, I set down a book full of vague rules for him to follow, don't answer his questions regarding how to interrupt those rules, and then punish him if he gets it wrong, would you consider me to be a good parent? I would be following in the footsteps of the Christian God. How can you say I'm not? Is this really the model we should be following? Americans laughed and mocked the Japanese for their solid system of honour in which one worships their family yet that is exactly what Christians are supposed to do. Is it done?
ok, I will open this up for response. Please be polite. Everyone is free to their own viewpoint, and each to their own is valid.
In a nutshell, I have been saying that because there are so many diffenent versions of the Bible it makes it hard to know what the true word of God is (assuming that the word of God is given in the Bible). Also, knowing that the Bible was transcribed by mortals, who is to say that somewhere in the transcription there was not a misspelling or wrong word inserted which chould inadvertanly change the meaning of one passage or another. One poster, Sean, has said that since the Bible can be traced down to within 30 years of the origin and there are more than 5,000 copies around the world. To this I reply that I know there are more than 5,000 copies of Cat In The Hat and it can be traced almost to 30 minutes of its origin. Does that make it true? If so, watch out for Thing 1 and Thing 2.
One point I usually make when I speak to people about why I am an Athiest is because I don't see any proof otherwise. Religion is nothing more than trying to explain the unexplainable. The Greeks tried it with their gods, as did many other cultures. Most every group of people has one set of beliefs or another and each was formed because they wanted to explain why they were here and how to control those around them. I believe that the purpose of religion is a good one. I love to quote Henry David Thoreau when he says in Walden, "Tablemanners were created so we don't kill those sitting next to us at dinner." We all need those rules. If you look at the 10 commandments, those are rules so we can all get along. Don't follow those rules, most likely someone will be upset. Usually, I try to follow the last 6 of the 17 10 commandments (This is like speaking of the fourth book of the Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy Trilogy) But I digress. What I was really going to say is that if the Bible were a set of rules God set down for his children to follow then he is a poor parent. If, when my child is born in a few months, I set down a book full of vague rules for him to follow, don't answer his questions regarding how to interrupt those rules, and then punish him if he gets it wrong, would you consider me to be a good parent? I would be following in the footsteps of the Christian God. How can you say I'm not? Is this really the model we should be following? Americans laughed and mocked the Japanese for their solid system of honour in which one worships their family yet that is exactly what Christians are supposed to do. Is it done?
ok, I will open this up for response. Please be polite. Everyone is free to their own viewpoint, and each to their own is valid.
Comments:
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Hey friend- As a Christian, I think the one thing you're leaving out that I consider essential is that of the reality of God's Spirit. Personally, I don't spend a ton (read as, any) time trying to distinguish the differences between different verses and interpretations and such. You and I both know that Bald Man enjoys it, but it doesn't do much for me. Not that I don't read it or believe it, I just don't enjoy arguing over it. I think Bald Man and I would both say, though, that the point of reading and knowing God's Word is to do it. To love, to serve, to share hope, to encourage. If more of us would just share God's love in action, it would make a huge impact on improving the world. So, the Spirit. I think it's God's way of not just throwing a bunch of rules at us without being there to follow through to help us understand. And the fact is that we all screw up from time to time. Usually, we know when we're doing it. We "hear" the Spirit leading us to do what's right, and we ignore. Or we know the right choice and we do right. Trust me, there are times that my kids know the right thing to do, look right at me knowing what they should do, and do the opposite! Being there doesn't guarantee that my kids will always make the right choices, but I wouldn't leave them alone to figure it out for themselves, either. I don't think God does.
Sean: When people die their body stops functioning. Usually they are put in a box and buried in the ground, or sometimes they are burnt to ashes and laid in bowls. The idea of an afterlife exists primarily for those who can't stand the thought that they don't carry on after this life. To me, I don't have to live forever. What I have done, I hope will carry on in those people I have influenced in my time on this Earth. Those people will remember me and what I did with and for them. They will teach others those things I have taught them. That is my afterlife.
What do you think happens when people die? I had posted on my MySpace that I would love to know what people think the afterlife is like. It is interesting to me to hear all the different ideas. Please, share your ideas with me.
What do you think happens when people die? I had posted on my MySpace that I would love to know what people think the afterlife is like. It is interesting to me to hear all the different ideas. Please, share your ideas with me.
Kerri: You are correct in that we all do those things we know are wrong from time to time. What I'm really talking about are those things which we may not know are wrong because we didn't understand the rules given to us. If, when you first walked into my house I said that you were to pet every cat EXCEPT Bagheera and I did not tell you which cats were which and then I gave you an electric shock if you touched her, would that be right? If I created a riddle with vague words and meanings which was translated from one language to another and then to yet another over and over again, do you think that the pure spirit of the message would be maintained? Have you ever played the grapevine game?
Do you think that Buddhists hear the Spirit when they are doing something wrong from a Christian mindset, but not wrong from a Buddhist one? If not, is that right? You are Mommie, and a good one IMHO, do you think God is a good Daddy? If Baldman were to parent like God, would you be satisfied?
Do you think that Buddhists hear the Spirit when they are doing something wrong from a Christian mindset, but not wrong from a Buddhist one? If not, is that right? You are Mommie, and a good one IMHO, do you think God is a good Daddy? If Baldman were to parent like God, would you be satisfied?
Rantz,
(For the record my question is actually about the proper object for a prepositional phrase. :D )
You'll never get a battle about converting to Christianity from me unless you ask for it. No... even then you won't get a battle, because I'd want to back up a few steps to make sure we were both talking about the same things. So, feel free to comment away. Besides real conversations wander and drift; no reasons comments in a post shouldn't do the same.
I owe you a post on the Bible, so for now I'll limit myself to this question: How, if at all, does your take on things change if the Bible isn't a rulebook? What if it is something else? OK, two questions, but this isn't like the Spanish Inquisition or anything...
(For the record my question is actually about the proper object for a prepositional phrase. :D )
You'll never get a battle about converting to Christianity from me unless you ask for it. No... even then you won't get a battle, because I'd want to back up a few steps to make sure we were both talking about the same things. So, feel free to comment away. Besides real conversations wander and drift; no reasons comments in a post shouldn't do the same.
I owe you a post on the Bible, so for now I'll limit myself to this question: How, if at all, does your take on things change if the Bible isn't a rulebook? What if it is something else? OK, two questions, but this isn't like the Spanish Inquisition or anything...
# posted by 
: 11:26 PM
: 11:26 PM
Baldman: As I'm sure you know, I respect you very much and know that you would not try and convert me. That is one reason I do comment on your posts. I know with you we can have open dialog. It is others I worry about, thus I bring it here.
What if the Bible isn't a rulebook? What would it be then? I guess I don't follow where you are leading on this one. I get confussed by all the references to the fact that certain parts of the Bible are to be followed exactly and others are just suggestions, but at no point does it spell out which are which. Seems too convient to me.
What if the Bible isn't a rulebook? What would it be then? I guess I don't follow where you are leading on this one. I get confussed by all the references to the fact that certain parts of the Bible are to be followed exactly and others are just suggestions, but at no point does it spell out which are which. Seems too convient to me.
rantz,
on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being 100% without question,certain) how sure are you that there is not a God?
on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being 100% without question,certain) how sure are you that there is not a God?
Rantz,
I'll show my hand with regard to my rulebook question when I write the post I owe you. :)
I'll show my hand with regard to my rulebook question when I write the post I owe you. :)
# posted by : 10:20 PM
: 10:20 PM
Okay, let me try to address what I think you're asking me. I'd rather do "in person" discussions, so bring your lovely wife over and we'll have dinner. :) Yes, there are sometimes that I make rules that are vague to the kids, mostly because I can't think of every pertinent detail of the rule at the moment. If you didn't tell me which cat was Bagheera, and yet Bagheera was known for biting and clawing faces, and I went to pet her, yes please yell at me! Not because I'm in the wrong, but because my safety is your priority. But please no electric shock. And, btw, don't be offended if I don't pet ANY of your cats the next time we're over. ;) Anyway, you're talking as if you've heard me say that I take everything literally and don't allow that anything may be debatable, and I don't think I've communicated that to you. Am I wrong? Much of what I've been thinking about lately is what Jesus said when asked about the greatest commandment. He said the first is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind. The second is to love your neighbor as yourself. When ALL of the scripture was boiled down to two verses by Jesus, those were the commandments. I figure that once I get those down, I can worry about the rest.
Sean: You ask many questions, but you haven't answered mine yet.
How would I rank my faith in the lack of a diety? I'd put it pretty high. I'd say in 8-10 range. Maybe not 10 because I hope I'd be smart enough to see I was wrong if it was proven to me that I was. I always say that I'm open for signs. I do try and discuss religion so as to learn more, and not just Christianity. Where would you rank your faith?
How would I rank my faith in the lack of a diety? I'd put it pretty high. I'd say in 8-10 range. Maybe not 10 because I hope I'd be smart enough to see I was wrong if it was proven to me that I was. I always say that I'm open for signs. I do try and discuss religion so as to learn more, and not just Christianity. Where would you rank your faith?
Kerri: First, you know you don't have to twist my arm when it comes to eating your food! Might have to work on Mrs. Grotto though.
Second, none of the comments were meant directly to be put personally to you. They were just general statements I have about the Bible and religion. I don't know you as well as I would like to know you, but I don't have any ill thoughts about you or any of your family.
Third (Why am I counting), I have the most problem with the first of the GRAND commandments. That to me should be last in the list. The first should be to love your neighbor and do good. I think maybe in doing that you are showing your love or at least your faith in what the god is saying (regardless of which god that may be). If I do all those things my parents taught me to do when I was growing up, I would be honoring them regardless of whether I loved them and told them every day. And while I am sure their pride would be hurt if they thought I didn't love them, they would be most proud that I was doing what they taught and thereby being a good person.
Second, none of the comments were meant directly to be put personally to you. They were just general statements I have about the Bible and religion. I don't know you as well as I would like to know you, but I don't have any ill thoughts about you or any of your family.
Third (Why am I counting), I have the most problem with the first of the GRAND commandments. That to me should be last in the list. The first should be to love your neighbor and do good. I think maybe in doing that you are showing your love or at least your faith in what the god is saying (regardless of which god that may be). If I do all those things my parents taught me to do when I was growing up, I would be honoring them regardless of whether I loved them and told them every day. And while I am sure their pride would be hurt if they thought I didn't love them, they would be most proud that I was doing what they taught and thereby being a good person.
Rantz,
as to the afterlife, I belive that at death one is in a state of dreamless sleep until the resurrection (when Jesus returns).
What would you say are the top 3 or 4 reasons why you came to believe that there is not a God?
as to the afterlife, I belive that at death one is in a state of dreamless sleep until the resurrection (when Jesus returns).
What would you say are the top 3 or 4 reasons why you came to believe that there is not a God?
Rantz (great name by the way),
I understand your wariness to treat the Bible as truth. But, I'd like to explain some of my reasons for believing it, and for being a Christian.
The text of the New Testament is the single most copied/reproduced ancient document. If I remember correctly, Bruce Metzger, a NT textual critic said in Lee Strobel's A Case for Christ, that if anyone wishes to state a lack of faith in a genuinely transmitted New Testament then they cannot say they know of any history before 1500AD. No document written before 1500AD has the credibility of being transmitted correctly as high as the New Testament. Furthermore, without the direct copying of the NT in codex/manuscript form, we still have most of the NT alluded or quoted from within the first three centuries by early christians. The degree of variance is so small among manuscripts, and there is no significant difference in light of any doctrine. The Nestle-Aland and UBS are two publications of the Greek NT, containing every difference known to us, rated by textual critics.
That takes care of the faithfully transmitted part.
As for why I believe it, that comes down to me witnessing its truth. History bears records of many many martyrs (including some of the eyewitnesses of Jesus) who wouldn't have died for what they knew to be a lie. I have experienced deliverance in my life. I have seen deliverance in others lives. The Bible makes prophetic claims that history records to be true.
I do not believe that the Bible is a set of rules handed down from on high. I believe that the Bible is a narrative, a story. That story contains morality and immorality. It include God taking bad decisions and turning them around. It involves God blessing good decisions. It involves God judging those who have made the wrong decision. God is always moving behind the scenes to accomplish his will. The Bible is all about God moving through people to accomplish his plan.
I understand your wariness to treat the Bible as truth. But, I'd like to explain some of my reasons for believing it, and for being a Christian.
The text of the New Testament is the single most copied/reproduced ancient document. If I remember correctly, Bruce Metzger, a NT textual critic said in Lee Strobel's A Case for Christ, that if anyone wishes to state a lack of faith in a genuinely transmitted New Testament then they cannot say they know of any history before 1500AD. No document written before 1500AD has the credibility of being transmitted correctly as high as the New Testament. Furthermore, without the direct copying of the NT in codex/manuscript form, we still have most of the NT alluded or quoted from within the first three centuries by early christians. The degree of variance is so small among manuscripts, and there is no significant difference in light of any doctrine. The Nestle-Aland and UBS are two publications of the Greek NT, containing every difference known to us, rated by textual critics.
That takes care of the faithfully transmitted part.
As for why I believe it, that comes down to me witnessing its truth. History bears records of many many martyrs (including some of the eyewitnesses of Jesus) who wouldn't have died for what they knew to be a lie. I have experienced deliverance in my life. I have seen deliverance in others lives. The Bible makes prophetic claims that history records to be true.
I do not believe that the Bible is a set of rules handed down from on high. I believe that the Bible is a narrative, a story. That story contains morality and immorality. It include God taking bad decisions and turning them around. It involves God blessing good decisions. It involves God judging those who have made the wrong decision. God is always moving behind the scenes to accomplish his will. The Bible is all about God moving through people to accomplish his plan.
Sean: What happens when Jesus returns and you wake up? Is there like a big kegger? Do you all sit around and play harp music in the clouds? Is it like a large family reunion with tons of food? Is everyone you want to see there (even those who did not lead a "good" life)?
As to the reason I came to not believing there is a God, I think #1 is that I never did believe there was a God. I never stopped because I never started. I went to church like a good little boy and sat up straight and listened to the man talk for an hour and usually I didn't poke or hit my brothers. Then I went home, changed clothes and went out to play without care. When I got to be old enough to reason and think clearly on my own I realized that I had no reason to believe in a god. The more I studied of history and the more I learned how many cultures have their own creation mythes I realized it was just a good way of keeping everyone under control according to their system. I also realized that most people turn to religion out of fear or need of support. I don't need that. If I need support I lean on my friends, family, or myself. I've seen sorrow (minor though it may have been) and dealt with it. I've looked fear in the eye and survived (I usually changed my underware afterward). I don't need that. You may. If you do, go for it.
What were the 3 or 4 biggest reasons you decided to believe in religion?
As to the reason I came to not believing there is a God, I think #1 is that I never did believe there was a God. I never stopped because I never started. I went to church like a good little boy and sat up straight and listened to the man talk for an hour and usually I didn't poke or hit my brothers. Then I went home, changed clothes and went out to play without care. When I got to be old enough to reason and think clearly on my own I realized that I had no reason to believe in a god. The more I studied of history and the more I learned how many cultures have their own creation mythes I realized it was just a good way of keeping everyone under control according to their system. I also realized that most people turn to religion out of fear or need of support. I don't need that. If I need support I lean on my friends, family, or myself. I've seen sorrow (minor though it may have been) and dealt with it. I've looked fear in the eye and survived (I usually changed my underware afterward). I don't need that. You may. If you do, go for it.
What were the 3 or 4 biggest reasons you decided to believe in religion?
Johno: Welcome to the discussion. Thank you for sharing your story. I see where you are coming from with regard to why you believe. It is good to hear people's stories, especially if they haven't always been a believer.
The arguement that if you don't believe in the truth of the text of the Bible you can't believe in anything from before date X is hard to follow. I believe the Bible was written at some time in the past, what I don't believe is that it is from some Devine source. Just like I believe there might have been someone who was named Jesus who was born 2007 years ago or so, but I don't believe he was the son of a god or a savior.
As to people doing things because they believe in them... We all do things because we believe them to be right. People fought and died for Hitler and the Nazi cause because they believed it was right. Does that make it correct? I fight causes every day I think are correct, but most people would disagree with. Does that make me more devine than others?
The story in the Bible is a good one from what I understand (it gets sort of difficult to follow, like a Shakespeare play, so I haven't really read it all). Your statement makes it sound like we are all just Sims in God's game. Is that how you see it? I read a really great story about that once, I'll have to find it again. Also, if God makes things move to his will, does that mean we don't have free will?
The arguement that if you don't believe in the truth of the text of the Bible you can't believe in anything from before date X is hard to follow. I believe the Bible was written at some time in the past, what I don't believe is that it is from some Devine source. Just like I believe there might have been someone who was named Jesus who was born 2007 years ago or so, but I don't believe he was the son of a god or a savior.
As to people doing things because they believe in them... We all do things because we believe them to be right. People fought and died for Hitler and the Nazi cause because they believed it was right. Does that make it correct? I fight causes every day I think are correct, but most people would disagree with. Does that make me more devine than others?
The story in the Bible is a good one from what I understand (it gets sort of difficult to follow, like a Shakespeare play, so I haven't really read it all). Your statement makes it sound like we are all just Sims in God's game. Is that how you see it? I read a really great story about that once, I'll have to find it again. Also, if God makes things move to his will, does that mean we don't have free will?
Rantz,
Perhaps I missed it, but did you give even one reason why you believe that there is not a God?
Your reason #1 for believing that there is not a God is that you have never believed in one. This is just as bad as a Christian who says they believe in God because they have always been taught that way. Clearly the length of time believing in something is not a good reason to continue believing in it.
Your reason #2 for believing that there is not a God is that many different cultures do believe in God. This is also not a reason that he doesn't exist. It's like saying I don't believe in such thing as TV because a lot of people watch it. Wouldn't the fact that a lot of people watch TV make you conclude that there is a TV?
Your reason #3 to believe that there is not a God is that you don't need him for comfort in tough times and you don't fear death. Not needing someone does not have a bearing on whether or not they exist.
So, unless I'm missing something here, I'd like to ask my question again: "What are your top 3 or 4 reasons for believing that there is not a God?"
Perhaps I missed it, but did you give even one reason why you believe that there is not a God?
Your reason #1 for believing that there is not a God is that you have never believed in one. This is just as bad as a Christian who says they believe in God because they have always been taught that way. Clearly the length of time believing in something is not a good reason to continue believing in it.
Your reason #2 for believing that there is not a God is that many different cultures do believe in God. This is also not a reason that he doesn't exist. It's like saying I don't believe in such thing as TV because a lot of people watch it. Wouldn't the fact that a lot of people watch TV make you conclude that there is a TV?
Your reason #3 to believe that there is not a God is that you don't need him for comfort in tough times and you don't fear death. Not needing someone does not have a bearing on whether or not they exist.
So, unless I'm missing something here, I'd like to ask my question again: "What are your top 3 or 4 reasons for believing that there is not a God?"
Sean: Make sure you read before you start jumping to reply.
1) I don't believe because there never was a reason for me to believe. I have found there are two different ways that people come upon faith: Always had it, never thought about it and the "touched" by the spirit kind. There are most likely two ways that people come upon not having faith: Never had it and lost it. I belong to the never had it group.
2) Many cultures have their own creation myths. Not that there is only one out there, but that there are many. The Bambuti don't believe as Christians do. The Budhists don't believe as the the Shinto. The Greeks didn't even believe the same as the Norse. Every culture has their way of expaining those things they couldn't otherwise explain. If there were just one, like there is just one idea of TV, I might believe in it, if I saw it, but there are many and I just don't think the facts are there to believe it. There is one fact, The Bible. Just not enough for me. The fact that one book exists doesn't mean that all it's contents are fact.
3) No, the fact that I don't need it doesn't disprove or prove the existance. It just means that I don't have that desire to believe that many other people do, and thus I don't.
Still you don't answer as to why you do believe. Please, let's make this more an exchange and less an attack. We're friendly here. Smile, be happy. Be calm. Let's exchange ideas. Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who.
1) I don't believe because there never was a reason for me to believe. I have found there are two different ways that people come upon faith: Always had it, never thought about it and the "touched" by the spirit kind. There are most likely two ways that people come upon not having faith: Never had it and lost it. I belong to the never had it group.
2) Many cultures have their own creation myths. Not that there is only one out there, but that there are many. The Bambuti don't believe as Christians do. The Budhists don't believe as the the Shinto. The Greeks didn't even believe the same as the Norse. Every culture has their way of expaining those things they couldn't otherwise explain. If there were just one, like there is just one idea of TV, I might believe in it, if I saw it, but there are many and I just don't think the facts are there to believe it. There is one fact, The Bible. Just not enough for me. The fact that one book exists doesn't mean that all it's contents are fact.
3) No, the fact that I don't need it doesn't disprove or prove the existance. It just means that I don't have that desire to believe that many other people do, and thus I don't.
Still you don't answer as to why you do believe. Please, let's make this more an exchange and less an attack. We're friendly here. Smile, be happy. Be calm. Let's exchange ideas. Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who.
Rantz,
The validity of the Bible as a source does not tell us its origin. I merely mean to say that the Bible cannot be discounted as disingenious, transmitted in error, malicious, or contrived. It communicates the truth of the people's lives it contains.
The Bible self-identifies portions of it as divinely originated. You can take this from a anthropological perspective if you like - but that will leave you with many unanswered questions if you truly seek and understand the historical context in which it what written. Two small examples - the Mosaic law is groundbreaking in examples of health. There is only one other ancient law comparable - Hammurabi's Code - and it doesn't come close to the health concerns that the Mosaic law contains. Secondly, to take an example from the NT - the claims of the first Jews to believe on Jesus also do not make any sense in light of natural occurrences. There were many others before and after Jesus claiming to be Messiah, and were killed - yet none leave a trail like his. Also, there is prophecy spoken hundreds of years in advance of it fulfillment. It is not spoken in vague parables, but rather in concrete visions. Your anthropological stance cannot take these events in the text into adequate consideration. Your point of view is critically lacking.
On to your second concern. I don't think God is a puppeteer. We do have free will - the will to choose to be different (irregardless of how hard that may be). However, God has a plan, and he will accomplish it. He is not malicious in his plan. He wishes all to come to repentance and to enter salvation. However that must be done in truth and obedience. God protects those who care for him, and will bless them in the age to come. God will not spare those who mock him, and persecute his people, they will be destroyed in the age to come. As an example, God gave Pharaoh the options. God gave him ten chances. Pharaoh did not choose wisely. God punished Pharaoh because of how he treated the Israelite people, and because he refused to let them go. Pharaoh had free will. Just as you do. And you've repeatedly said you choose to not believe. You don't believe that you can't choose to believe, do you?
The validity of the Bible as a source does not tell us its origin. I merely mean to say that the Bible cannot be discounted as disingenious, transmitted in error, malicious, or contrived. It communicates the truth of the people's lives it contains.
The Bible self-identifies portions of it as divinely originated. You can take this from a anthropological perspective if you like - but that will leave you with many unanswered questions if you truly seek and understand the historical context in which it what written. Two small examples - the Mosaic law is groundbreaking in examples of health. There is only one other ancient law comparable - Hammurabi's Code - and it doesn't come close to the health concerns that the Mosaic law contains. Secondly, to take an example from the NT - the claims of the first Jews to believe on Jesus also do not make any sense in light of natural occurrences. There were many others before and after Jesus claiming to be Messiah, and were killed - yet none leave a trail like his. Also, there is prophecy spoken hundreds of years in advance of it fulfillment. It is not spoken in vague parables, but rather in concrete visions. Your anthropological stance cannot take these events in the text into adequate consideration. Your point of view is critically lacking.
On to your second concern. I don't think God is a puppeteer. We do have free will - the will to choose to be different (irregardless of how hard that may be). However, God has a plan, and he will accomplish it. He is not malicious in his plan. He wishes all to come to repentance and to enter salvation. However that must be done in truth and obedience. God protects those who care for him, and will bless them in the age to come. God will not spare those who mock him, and persecute his people, they will be destroyed in the age to come. As an example, God gave Pharaoh the options. God gave him ten chances. Pharaoh did not choose wisely. God punished Pharaoh because of how he treated the Israelite people, and because he refused to let them go. Pharaoh had free will. Just as you do. And you've repeatedly said you choose to not believe. You don't believe that you can't choose to believe, do you?
Rantz,
I certainly was not attacking you at all. I had simply asked a question: "What are your top 3 or 4 reasons for BELIEVING that there is no God?" You have not given me any evidence at all as to why it is true that there is not a God.
Anyhow, my next question is, "What would it take to convince you that there is a God?"
I certainly was not attacking you at all. I had simply asked a question: "What are your top 3 or 4 reasons for BELIEVING that there is no God?" You have not given me any evidence at all as to why it is true that there is not a God.
Anyhow, my next question is, "What would it take to convince you that there is a God?"
Sean: To prove to you that there is no god any more than I have already stated I would need to have proof there is a god which I could then disprove. The fact is, and will always remain, there is no proof. I have a feeling and belief, you have a feeling and belief. There is no way you can prove yours any more than I can prove mine. I am not telling you that you are wrong for your belief, and I hope you would allow me the same respect. I would like to hear the story of how you came to your belief though. Please share.
As to what it would take for me to believe, simple. I need physical tangable proof that a god exists. To paraphrase Thomas (I don't have a sitation, but I'm sure you can provide me with one) "Show me the holes and I will believe." And no, the fact that we are standing on Earth is not proof.
As to what it would take for me to believe, simple. I need physical tangable proof that a god exists. To paraphrase Thomas (I don't have a sitation, but I'm sure you can provide me with one) "Show me the holes and I will believe." And no, the fact that we are standing on Earth is not proof.
Johno: There are many great things to come out of religion. I think that not eating meat (sic. red meat) on friday is GREAT. This helps to preserve the livestock as well as help the fishermen (not to mention the health benifits of white meat over red meat). Heck, I think the idea of not eating with the same hand you wipe yourself with is a great idea. It doesn't prove the existance of a god. Great things come out of every major war, should we worship war? The book 1984 predicted many things, is it devine?
We have had, thoughout history, great and small leaders. Do you think that Atilla was the first man who tired to lead the Huns? Just because one man succeeded where others might have failed does not make him the son of god.
The question upon which you end is confusing to me. I'm not sure if it is the double negative or what. I do believe in free will (not believing in a being who can control me otherwise).
We have had, thoughout history, great and small leaders. Do you think that Atilla was the first man who tired to lead the Huns? Just because one man succeeded where others might have failed does not make him the son of god.
The question upon which you end is confusing to me. I'm not sure if it is the double negative or what. I do believe in free will (not believing in a being who can control me otherwise).
Whew. I left for a day and look what happens! I have only one question, how did I turn Mrs. Grotto off of my cooking already? I didn't even get a chance to show her how badly I can burn things, yet. ;)
you know, these are all very interesting questions. and Rantz, i have some of the same questions. and i don't know that there are any real answers, to be honest.
i am not sure that there is any "proof" for religious claims. but really, for me at least, i don't know that having those "proofs" would be that helpful.
i started reading kierkegaard a while back (please don't ask me to explain much of what he wrote because it is beyond me) but i did find him helpful in one way. he talks about how many of the choices we make regarding life are really leaps of faith.
sure, you could say that is a cop out and irrational. i don't find that offensive. to be honest, i find it more offensive when christians think that they can use human reason to explain/prove the existence of a god.
there is a long and sadly often neglected tradition with in christianity (and i presume in other religions) of seeing the faith as just that, a faith. if we desire a proof or evidence then it isn't a faith anymore, it is something else, but not faith. there is nothing wrong, i suppose, with looking at the evidence. but to my mind one can find evidence for what ever world view one wants.
going back to that long tradition. there were folks like augustine and the mystics and later barth and kierkegaard and simple carpenters like myself who have found augustines words to be helpful "i believe so that i may know." of course, to someone who measures everything through an enlightenment lens (and there is a place for that right?) the idea of needing to believe before one can know must seem like a bunch of silliness.
but i figured that you are likely to get a lot of comments about this proof or that one. or this argument or that. personally i have found those to be a waste of time. i just wanted to interject this alternative into the discussion before the discussion got all heated.
regarding the more than likely hateful/ignorant comments that you are likely to get from christians i just want to say i am sorry about all that. christians can get a bit edgy when their beliefs are challenged. or we will go to great lengths to "convert" folks and in the midst of it all we forget to be open minded and gentle and hold our beliefs with humility. this should not be so, but sadly it is.
i guess i hope that when/if this happens you will remember that not every christian is a jerk.
i am not sure that there is any "proof" for religious claims. but really, for me at least, i don't know that having those "proofs" would be that helpful.
i started reading kierkegaard a while back (please don't ask me to explain much of what he wrote because it is beyond me) but i did find him helpful in one way. he talks about how many of the choices we make regarding life are really leaps of faith.
sure, you could say that is a cop out and irrational. i don't find that offensive. to be honest, i find it more offensive when christians think that they can use human reason to explain/prove the existence of a god.
there is a long and sadly often neglected tradition with in christianity (and i presume in other religions) of seeing the faith as just that, a faith. if we desire a proof or evidence then it isn't a faith anymore, it is something else, but not faith. there is nothing wrong, i suppose, with looking at the evidence. but to my mind one can find evidence for what ever world view one wants.
going back to that long tradition. there were folks like augustine and the mystics and later barth and kierkegaard and simple carpenters like myself who have found augustines words to be helpful "i believe so that i may know." of course, to someone who measures everything through an enlightenment lens (and there is a place for that right?) the idea of needing to believe before one can know must seem like a bunch of silliness.
but i figured that you are likely to get a lot of comments about this proof or that one. or this argument or that. personally i have found those to be a waste of time. i just wanted to interject this alternative into the discussion before the discussion got all heated.
regarding the more than likely hateful/ignorant comments that you are likely to get from christians i just want to say i am sorry about all that. christians can get a bit edgy when their beliefs are challenged. or we will go to great lengths to "convert" folks and in the midst of it all we forget to be open minded and gentle and hold our beliefs with humility. this should not be so, but sadly it is.
i guess i hope that when/if this happens you will remember that not every christian is a jerk.
btw hope you don't mind, but that answer about what happens when you die was good. i get accosted by street preachers quite often and i have never thought of answering that question that way. all that is to say that i am going to steal that from you and shamelessly not give you the credit.
Mike: Nice to have you join the conversation. Please feel free to steal any comments you like. Always nice if you give credit, but not necessary. I hope you come back and read more so you can find more to steal. I had an English teacher once who always said, "plagerism is the greatest form of flattery." I'm flattered.
What you say is true. Most of our beliefs are leaps of faith. I do believe that for most all things I do. I am a strong believer in mind over matter. No I don't think I can bend bars with my mind, but I do believe that we can overcome so many things if we just believe we can. How often have you seen someone do something they shouldn't be able to do simply because they didn't know it wasn't possible. Innocence is the greatest solver of puzzles.
One of my favorite mantras:
Pain does not exist.
Pain is just an extinsion of fear.
I fear nothing
Therefor I feel no pain.
Does it always work? No, but it helps sometimes.
What you say is true. Most of our beliefs are leaps of faith. I do believe that for most all things I do. I am a strong believer in mind over matter. No I don't think I can bend bars with my mind, but I do believe that we can overcome so many things if we just believe we can. How often have you seen someone do something they shouldn't be able to do simply because they didn't know it wasn't possible. Innocence is the greatest solver of puzzles.
One of my favorite mantras:
Pain does not exist.
Pain is just an extinsion of fear.
I fear nothing
Therefor I feel no pain.
Does it always work? No, but it helps sometimes.
Kerri: It isn't your cooking, it is just that Mrs. Grotto is pretty much a homebody so getting her out at all is tough. Plus little Kharoah is tiring her out. Believe me, it's not personal. Neither of us have seen hardly anyone in a LONG time. In fact, I can't remember the last time I rubbed ol' Baldy's head.
Mike: I got distracted. Can you tell me your story of the leap of faith? I do like to hear them. I'd also love to hear your ideas on the afterlife.
I do know many Christians who are great people. My wife is a Christian. I love her. Many people were against our marriage because they said we had no chance due to mixed faiths. So far though, it really hasn't been an issue. Also, Baldman and Kerri are friends, not as close as I'd like them to be, but that's partly my fault, not religion.
I do know many Christians who are great people. My wife is a Christian. I love her. Many people were against our marriage because they said we had no chance due to mixed faiths. So far though, it really hasn't been an issue. Also, Baldman and Kerri are friends, not as close as I'd like them to be, but that's partly my fault, not religion.
Don't you just LOVE apologetics... :P
Rantz,
I'll tell you my story of faith (Have I done that before? I don't think so.) over dinner. Deal? Having known me off and on for the last two decades might give you some good context and lead to some good conversation.
I'll email you.
Rantz,
I'll tell you my story of faith (Have I done that before? I don't think so.) over dinner. Deal? Having known me off and on for the last two decades might give you some good context and lead to some good conversation.
I'll email you.
# posted by : 10:12 AM
: 10:12 AM
Baldman: I'd love to hear your story, but Mrs. Grotto has said that she would not be present for any conversation between you and I with regard to religion. She doesn't understand when I talk with people and there is a difference of opinion. She thinks it'll all lead to punches or something.
If you promise to talk about soccer and school we can have that dinner. Maybe sometime we could get together and have the religion talk over a glass of... converted water...
If you promise to talk about soccer and school we can have that dinner. Maybe sometime we could get together and have the religion talk over a glass of... converted water...
Are faith and reason incompatible? I really don't think so. I hope that everything I have faith in is reasonable. Yet this is what mike implies, that if you know something for sure it does not require faith. I know for sure this chair is going to hold me up...so I excercise my faith and sit down. One can have both certainty and faith. To not be sure about something is doubt (which is somewhat opposite of faith). I believe there is a God for reasons. The fact that I don't see God does not affect those reasons. (I believe in atoms too yet I've never seen one). In fact, if my reasons for believing in God are nonsensical, contradictory, or wrong, I certainly would want to know. I seek truth...and if the truth is that there is no God then that is what I want to believe. That's why I asked you so many questions.
Right, you have never seen an atom, but you have faith that what you have learned is true. I have never seen a god, but I don't have faith that they are true. No biggie. I have doubts because there are obvious reasons for them. To say that there is no reason for doubting your religion is to not look at it very closely. If you do look at it and say, even with what I know, I still believe, that is true understanding. That is what I think the Bible is shooting for.
I think that asking questions is great, but are you listening to the answers or just waiting to shoot them down. That is my biggest problem. I shoot first and contemplate later. My one saving grace is that usually, I do contemplage later and am willing to admit when I'm wrong. USUALLY.
I think that asking questions is great, but are you listening to the answers or just waiting to shoot them down. That is my biggest problem. I shoot first and contemplate later. My one saving grace is that usually, I do contemplage later and am willing to admit when I'm wrong. USUALLY.
i never said that faith and reason are incompatible. but i don't believe that reason is the path to faith.
the chair example is an apples and oranges thing because the chair is a physical object that you can touch and see.
as for doubt being the opposite of faith i would disagree. it seems to me that the way faith in christ is described as trust that he is good and will redeem us. in that case fear would be the opposite, not faith.
faith and reason are not incompatible. but each has its place. with augustine i have found that i first have to by faith receive gods self revelation and then use reason to understand what i can of that self revelation.
with in that paradigm i must also realize that i am limited in what i can comprehend and as Barth noted we cannot completely and accurately talk about god and so we can not be certain about our ideas about god.
i often wonder why christians feel threatened by uncertainty. why do we feel that we need certainty and proof?
granted some might say that we are to spread the gospel and so we must be able to prove to others the truth. but it has been my experience that there are at least two valid and well educated sides to most debates. being only human and therefore not having all knowledge about all things i cannot claim that i know for certain that what i believe is true. i have to ultimately go on faith. if someone else comes to a different conclusion by looking at the same "facts" that does not invalidate what i believe.
for example, in college i studied anthropology and at first i was threatened by evolutionary biology because i had been taught by other christians that if evolution were true then christianity couldn't be. but i realized that just because i don't know how to reconcile the findings of science with the things in the bible doesn't mean that one has to be false and the other true. it just means that i am not smart enough to figure it out. so instead of rejecting scientific understanding about the universe or rejecting christianity i live in the tension that exists between those two and my inability to know everything.
certainty about a chair holding me up requires me to have previous experience with chairs. i don't need to know everything about gravity and physics to know that a chair will hold me up. i trust the chair will hold me up (unless it is badly made) because of my experience that gives me reason to have faith in it.
but the christian god as well as the universe and all of history is just a bit more complicated than a chair (i would hope) and so there is no way that i can understand or know everything i would need to know in order to be certain that there is a god, let alone that the christian concept of god is true. therefore my belief in god is a matter of faith. there are reasons to believe that god exists, but there are reasons not to as well. smarter folks than any of us have disagreed about the existence of god and to me it seems really arrogant to think that i could out reason any of those folks.
so if i claim to be certain that god exists or does not i would either have to have at my hand maybe not all but most knowledge about the universe, or suffer from a radical hubris.
what is more, if you really want to have fun ask yourself why you know that that chair even exists. what if it and the sensation that you are sitting in it is just a figment of your imagination?
what if i am just a computer simulation? what if i am a brain in a jar and electrodes are inputting the sensation that i am sitting in a chair?
i am not sure that we can know that we know what we think we know. now, i think the above example is a very limited possibility but i cannot ultimately rule it out because it cannot be disproved because of our limited/finite ability to know things.
when i stopped grasping at certainty i was able to begin having faith. furthermore, i no longer felt threatened by the non-belief in christianity by others. then i found i was more able to enter into dialogue with them and learn from them.
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the chair example is an apples and oranges thing because the chair is a physical object that you can touch and see.
as for doubt being the opposite of faith i would disagree. it seems to me that the way faith in christ is described as trust that he is good and will redeem us. in that case fear would be the opposite, not faith.
faith and reason are not incompatible. but each has its place. with augustine i have found that i first have to by faith receive gods self revelation and then use reason to understand what i can of that self revelation.
with in that paradigm i must also realize that i am limited in what i can comprehend and as Barth noted we cannot completely and accurately talk about god and so we can not be certain about our ideas about god.
i often wonder why christians feel threatened by uncertainty. why do we feel that we need certainty and proof?
granted some might say that we are to spread the gospel and so we must be able to prove to others the truth. but it has been my experience that there are at least two valid and well educated sides to most debates. being only human and therefore not having all knowledge about all things i cannot claim that i know for certain that what i believe is true. i have to ultimately go on faith. if someone else comes to a different conclusion by looking at the same "facts" that does not invalidate what i believe.
for example, in college i studied anthropology and at first i was threatened by evolutionary biology because i had been taught by other christians that if evolution were true then christianity couldn't be. but i realized that just because i don't know how to reconcile the findings of science with the things in the bible doesn't mean that one has to be false and the other true. it just means that i am not smart enough to figure it out. so instead of rejecting scientific understanding about the universe or rejecting christianity i live in the tension that exists between those two and my inability to know everything.
certainty about a chair holding me up requires me to have previous experience with chairs. i don't need to know everything about gravity and physics to know that a chair will hold me up. i trust the chair will hold me up (unless it is badly made) because of my experience that gives me reason to have faith in it.
but the christian god as well as the universe and all of history is just a bit more complicated than a chair (i would hope) and so there is no way that i can understand or know everything i would need to know in order to be certain that there is a god, let alone that the christian concept of god is true. therefore my belief in god is a matter of faith. there are reasons to believe that god exists, but there are reasons not to as well. smarter folks than any of us have disagreed about the existence of god and to me it seems really arrogant to think that i could out reason any of those folks.
so if i claim to be certain that god exists or does not i would either have to have at my hand maybe not all but most knowledge about the universe, or suffer from a radical hubris.
what is more, if you really want to have fun ask yourself why you know that that chair even exists. what if it and the sensation that you are sitting in it is just a figment of your imagination?
what if i am just a computer simulation? what if i am a brain in a jar and electrodes are inputting the sensation that i am sitting in a chair?
i am not sure that we can know that we know what we think we know. now, i think the above example is a very limited possibility but i cannot ultimately rule it out because it cannot be disproved because of our limited/finite ability to know things.
when i stopped grasping at certainty i was able to begin having faith. furthermore, i no longer felt threatened by the non-belief in christianity by others. then i found i was more able to enter into dialogue with them and learn from them.
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